what does the bible say about the new moon

- ' New Moon ' : Translators noticing that Scripture uses the word 'chodesh' in a second religious context have chosen in these cases to simply render the Hebrew word as 'New Moon'. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: AMP. The Moon In The Bible. In Colossians 2:16-17, the apostle Paul exhorts us, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”. The Hebrew calendar is lunar-based and the new moon marked the beginning of each new month and triggered offerings to God and certain festivals. Head of the Month) is the name for the first day of every month in the Hebrew calendar, marked by the birth of a new moon.It is considered a minor holiday, akin to the intermediate days of Passover and Sukkot. A new moon is the beginning of a month in God's calendar. In Eerdmans Handbook to the Bible, p. 111, we read: "Perhaps in early times the weekly sabbath was adjusted to COINCIDE with major festivals, or even with new moons (see Leviticus 23). Let’s take a look at what the Bible says about the sun getting dark. Colossians 2:16 - 18. Astrology is becoming popular, with many people regarding it to be a source of wise counsel. In Job 25:5 the grandeur of the Lord who “Makes peace in the heights” is praised and the time is mentioned “before [there was] a moon and it did not shine.”. Fausset’s Bible Encyclopedia, under “Year [Hebrew year] reads, “They be­gan it with the new moon nearest to the equinox, yet late enough to allow of the firstfruits of barley harvest being offered about the middle of the first month. “The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.” Pray for our Lord to rebuild us with new thoughts, new ideas, and a godly worldview. ... 31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the Lord in the sabbaths, in the new moon s, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the Lord: 2 CHRONICLES 31:3In the Bible Verse Meaning. Most would say a “new month” is the same as a “new moon” and use moon observation or calculation to determine the start of a month. (ABP Apostolic Bible Polyglot) TrumpG4537 duringG1722 the New Moon --G3561 a trumpetG4536 inG1722 the well-markedG2154 dayG2250 of your holiday!G1859 G1473. i If you are new to the topic of lunar Sabbath theory, there is a short list of time-keeping jargon that you may need to learn to understand what you are studying. The shofar was used to announce the new moon and the Jubilee year. Indeed it does because the Moon is associated with Religion and the most religious spirit of all, Lucifer13. And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. ) The increasing moon; the moon in her first quarter, or when defined by a concave and a convex edge; also, applied improperly to the old or decreasing moon in a like state. The Rabbanite Midrash relates that when God said to Moses "This month (HODESH) shall be for you the beginning of months" (Ex 12,2) the Almighty pointed up into the heavens at the crescent New Moon and said "When you see like this, sanctify! The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever. Revelation 14:9-12 ESV / 176 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful. This new moon would be what scripture alludes to in Amos 8:5 when some couldn’t sell their grains on the new moon day. The Jewish calendar , however, depended upon the course of the sun, since the festivals it appointed were in part agricultural celebrations. Almost every calendar researcher agrees with that. A “Gregorian month” means January or February, etc. According to CBN News , experts say the eclipse will be partially visible from eastern Asia, … 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Psalms 89:37 - It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. But that's not all the Bible says. The Psalmist is astonished by God's creative power, and awestruck by the fact that he still cares for … - Sort By Book Order. The Bible makes it very clear that they are the ones who are wrong. In addition to the daily sacrifice there were offered two young bullocks, a ram and seven lambs of the first year as a burnt offering, with the proper meat offerings and drink offerings, and a kid as a sin offering. Bible Verses about the Sun, Moon, and Stars. *from Rechavia, Jerusalem by Devorah Gordon at 7:33pm followed by Nehemia Gordon at 7:37pm and Gil Ashendorf at 7:44pm. One verse we can look at is Isaiah 40:22, where it mentions the “circle of the earth.”From space, the earth always appears as a circle since it is round. The significance of the new moon in Bible times is that it marked the beginning of a new month (the Hebrew calendar is lunar-based), and it was a time when the Israelites were to bring an offering to God. The commencement of a month was determined by the observation of the new moon. That has scientists puzzled. Holy water is now permanently retained at the entrance of Catholic churches, blessed at the first of each lunar month, and sprinkled over patrons as they enter. The scholars elaborate on the difference between the lunar calendar and the … [=declare New Moon day]". What is a blood moon? A new moon occurs when the first visible crescent can be seen. The new moon of Abib (Nisan) begins the sacred year. The beginning of the month was known not by astronomical calculations but by the testimony of messengers appointed to watch for the first visible appearance of the new moon. Starting at the Feast of Tabernacles in 1992, and periodically through June 2003, I have given a sermon on the Holy Calendar, the calendar as specified in the Bible.In it I showed the errors of the Jewish calendar in use today and the way we can obtain the calendar from scripture. What is the Apostle Paul saying in this scripture when he says, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days"? (The Popular and Critical Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way. 10,5) states that the Passover was celebrated when the sun was in Aries” (p. 727). Selah. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (n.) Anything having the shape of a crescent or new moon. Revelations 21:23 says that the new earth will have no need of the sun or moon because the glory of God will be its illumination. Here are 9 verses related to New Moon. With each word in its proper Hebrew interlinear order and each of the prefixes and suffixes identified, please take this opportunity to carefully consider this lost evidence that is presently being brought to light. It is the Hebrew word chodesh (Strong’s H2320/TWOT 613b) meaning “the new moon, month, monthly, the first day of the month, the lunar month.” It is found in the Tanakh (Old Testament) 276 times and is translated in the King James Version as “month” 254 times, “new moon” (20 times), and “monthly” (1 time). The primary meaning of Hodesh is actually "New Moon" or "New Moon Day" and it is only by extension that it came to mean "month", that is, the period between one New Moon and the next. Before we get started here is interesting information about the moon in the Bible. Isn't it interesting that in the end, we will go back to the beginning? The Moon Is Rusting, and Researchers Want to Know Why. This is one reason why, when the new moon appears for the first time in the night sky, we celebrate. Tishri, the seventh month, and all the fall festivals arrive six new moons later. - Sort By Book Order. It is the Hebrew word chodesh (Strong’s H2320/TWOT 613b) meaning “the new moon, month, monthly, the first day of the month, the lunar month.” It is found in the Tanakh (Old Testament) 276 times and is translated in the King James Version as “month” 254 times, “new moon” (20 times), and “monthly” (1 time). Joshua 10:12 As such, the meaning of the Moon must loom large in the spiritual history of our planet. Here is how Satan the devil fistolefl the New Moon of the Bible, According to Rabbinical Mathematics and Astronomy by W. M.. The visible new moon and full moon times quite simply are conflicting and non-compatible systems. New Moon by New Moon You Shall Keep – Isaiah 66:22-23 Isaiah 66:22-23. A new lunar eclipse and "blood moon" is set to happen on Wednesday, May 26, sparking discussion about if and how celestial events can foretell the coming of Christ. D iscover in the context of this interlinear Hebrew word study that the true New Moon lunar phase is revealed in four ways as four separate, yet cohesive witnesses. So, Here Are 22 Important Bible Verses About The End Times: 1. Yahweh commanded special offerings on each new moon, and one special new moon is even a Feast day called the Feast of Trumpets, Isaiah 66:23. Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, on our feast day. The Bible’s description of the moon as the “lesser light” is not meant to classify the moon as a light source similar to the sun. 15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Isaiah 2:2: 2 “ Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it.” 2. Numbers 28:11-15 11 "'On the first of every month, present to the LORD a burnt offering of two young bulls, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect. 12 With each bull there is to be a grain offering of three-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with oil; with the ram, a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with oil; 13 and with each lamb, a grain offering of a tenth of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with oil. This is for a burnt offering, a pleasing aroma, a food offering presented to the LORD. 14 With each bull there is to be a drink offering of half a hin of wine; with the ram, a third of a hin; and with each lamb, a quarter of a hin. This is the monthly burnt offering to be made at each new moon during the year. 15 Besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering, one male goat is to be presented to the LORD as a sin offering. Isaiah 66:23 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. New Moon of the 5th Biblical Month. Let’s invite our Lord Jesus Christ into our heart and meditate on what the Bible says about a New Day. does the Bible say? On August 4, 2016, the new moon was sighted from Israel. Ok, get this. What does the Bible say about noonday? The key verse in this scripture is verse 16, where 5 things are mentioned: grain, drink, a holyday, a new moon… The moon was sighted: *from the Old City of Jerusalem by Daniela Cachicas at 7:26pm and David Cachicas at 7:27pm. One passage that has always been important to Adventists is Colossians 2:16, 17: “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. (This verse is often used by people who wrongly claim that the New Moon is the full moon, not the new crescent moon. But let me go, that I may hide myself in the field till the third day at evening. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.”. “The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, “This month shall be for you the beginning of months. There were no watches or mechanical clocks until 1300 years after the death of Jesus. The conflict between the visible new moons and full moons as to the start of the months is no better when using direct observation of the new moons either. By looking up. Psalms 89:37 - It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Colossians 2:16, ESV: "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath." So, Here Are 22 Important Bible Verses About The End Times: 1. When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The ‘first month’ is the month in which we celebrate Passover in the Spring, and the new moon signifies the beginning of each new month. The notion 'New Moon' has generally been viewed at a literal level. When Is Rosh Chodesh? The Bible says the saved people of all ages will keep the Sabbath in the new earth. A full lunar eclipse can make the moon look orange or red. The related term חָדָשׁ means “new,” and newness cannot apply to the sun, but only to the moon, which disappears and renews itself every month. Use this table of contents to go to any section: Contents. That's where the term "blood moon" comes from. ANSWER: These are very good questions. Yahweh uses the new moon to establish moedim, or commanded observances, Psalm 104:19. Nowhere does the Bible say we are to keep the weekly Sabbath based on the new moon of each month. Joel 2:31 - The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. New American Standard Bible Chapter Parallel Isaiah 30:26 (NAS) The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven days, on the day the LORD binds up the fracture of His people and heals the bruise He has inflicted. Beginning of the Month; lit. Jewish months, pegged to the cycle of the moon, have either 29 or 30 days. New Moon. Specifically, the annual cycle is connected with the new moon, which in Hebrew is khodesh (Strong's #2320). Rosh Chodesh or Rosh Hodesh (Hebrew: ראש חודש ‎; trans. [=declare New Moon day]". What does the Bible say about New Moon? The Rabbanite Midrash relates that when God said to Moses "This month (HODESH) shall be for you the beginning of months" (Ex 12,2) the Almighty pointed up into the heavens at the crescent New Moon and said "When you see like this, sanctify! Genesis 1:14 tells us: “ Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;”. The Feast of Trumpets always begins on Tishrei 1, the beginning of the seventh month on the Hebrew calendar. In order to connect the reckoning by weeks with the lunar month, we find that all ancient nations observed some peculiar solemnities to mark the day of the New Moon." According to Rabbinical Mathematics and Astronomy by W. M.. (Psalm 81:3 RSV) The gap between the new moon and the full moon is approximately fifteen days. Psalms 89:37 - It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Fourth and last, inferences from references to the new moon during the millennial reign of Jesus Christ on earth (Isaiah 66:23) are not clear indications for what we today should be doing. This would be how man would tell time. What does the Bible say about them? Clearly, then, the determination of the New Moon day and the start of the month by the New Moon crescent is that approved and actually kept by the Messiah himself. THE MOON IN SCRIPTURE The Moon is the second largest object in the sky11 and the second brightest object in the sky12 after the Sun. Signs and Seasons, Days and Years When the sun and moon are first introduced in Scripture, they are not even named, simply called the … Bible verses about New World Order. The meaning is that moonlight as it reaches the earth is less bright than sunlight, a fact that we all acknowledge. Question: "What was the significance of the new moon in Bible times?". Answer: The significance of the new moon in Bible times is that it marked the beginning of a new month (the Hebrew calendar is lunar-based), and it was a time when the Israelites were to bring an offering to God. But according to the Bible, the new year starts on “The first day of the first month”. The sun, moon, and stars, were obviously made for man's benefit. Colossians 2:16 — “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.”. There is no doubt that the faithful Israelites had to have known well in advance when the Passover would be observed. If the expanse (translated as firmament or vault in some English Bible versions) also includes the sun, moon, and stars—as Genesis 1:14–15 seem to imply—then it would follow that man would have been given dominion of outer space as well. Bible verses related to The Moon from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance. The Bible's description of the moon as a light is a matter of semantics. There was a great earthquake. Colossians 2:14-17 is used by some to say that when Jesus died on the cross he nailed the ordinances, such as keeping the Sabbath day, to the cross, so that we do not have to keep it any more. Head of the Month) is the name for the first day of every month in the Hebrew calendar, marked by the birth of a new moon.It is considered a minor holiday, akin to the intermediate days of Passover and Sukkot. So Josephus (Ant. New Moon: Feast of; Traffic at Time Of, Suspended; Very High: Search Popularity Scale Find Most Searched Verses. Bible verses related to Moon from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance. Bible verses related to The Red Moon from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance. One issue that was contested among different ancient Jewish sects was which calendar to use. Darkening Sun Moon And Stars Darkness At The End Eclipse The Sun Eclipses Turned To Blood. All this does not prove of course that before that time there was no moon and, consequently, no months either. What does the Bible say about Moon? A critical component to His calendar is the new moon, which starts each Biblical month. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. What it does not say is how or what caused the Kadosh (holy) New Moon and seventh-day Sabbath of the Eternal Yahuah Alahim to be removed or changed from humankind’s understanding of Scripture. Let no man therefore judge you in meat or drink, or in respect to a holy day or the new moon or the Sabbath days, ASV. - Sort By Book Order. Rosh Chodesh means the “head of the new [moon],” and indeed it is a day—or two—of celebration marking the start of a new lunar month. Sabbath and New Moon (Rosh Hodesh), both periodically recurring in the course of the year. 3, 1904, p.1497) “1. Bible verses about The Red Moon. New Moons in the Bible The significance of new moons in the Bible is that it marked the beginning of a new month in the Hebrew calendar, which was lunar-based. It was so subtle, so clever, that no one noticed it Œ or paid it any attention Œ for 1,500 years Œ a millennium and a half! David said to Jonathan, “Behold, tomorrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit at table with the king. D iscover in this Hebrew word study “Blow with the New Moon Shofar – Psalms 81:3,” evidence that the term New Moon in Scripture, originally applied to the full moon. Colossians 2:16. The shofar is mentioned frequently in the Hebrew Bible, the Talmud and rabbinic literature.In the first instance, in Exodus 19, the blast of a shofar emanating from the thick cloud on Mount Sinai makes the Israelites tremble in awe.. This being true, the prophecies about the moon being turned to blood cannot refer to the four blood moons of … Galen Smith Retired from Multnomah Bible College and Biblical Seminary. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, ( Revelation 6:12, NIV) While many Christians and Bible scholars believe Earth has already entered the end times, the Bible says … It's in the Bible, Isaiah 47:13-15 NIV. The Moon as viewed by NASA's Mariner 10 in 1973, well before research would find signs of rust on the airless surface. Homeschooling Torah | How does the Bible teach us to determine the beginning of a new moon or a new year? The Hebrew word for month (hodesh) literally means "new moon." The name Jericho may mean City Of The Moon (Jones' Dictionary of Old Testament Proper Names) or Place Of Fragrance (NOBSE Study Bible Name List). NOWHERE DOES THE BIBLE AUTHORIZE US TO DO OTHERWISE! After the exile, the seventh-day sabbath was more strictly [?] Only God can make time holy, and there is no scriptural evidence that God designated new moons as holy or sacred time, other than that one festival. "All the counsel you have received has only worn you out. This practice was created to supplant the pagan celebration of the new moon, according to … Isaiah 2:2: 2 “ Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it.” 2. Answer: Yes. Joel 2:31. Five or six new moons later (depending on whether it is a leap year), Abib begins again along with the spring festivals. So how did those in the bible tell time? Answer: The significance of the new moon in Bible times is that it marked the beginning of a new month (the Hebrew calendar is lunar-based), and it was a time when the Israelites were to bring an offering to God. Here are 88 verses related with the popularity level of each verse. And of course, the authors of the Bible probably were very much aware that they gave Jericho its two different names, suggesting that this city was known for both moon worship and fragrances. Rosh Chodesh or Rosh Hodesh (Hebrew: ראש חודש ‎; trans. Second, a solar eclipse can occur only at new moon, but we know that Jesus was crucified at the time of Passover (Matthew 26:2; Mark 14:1–2,12; Luke 22:1–2, 7; John 13:1), and that the Passover is at the time of full moon (Exodus 12:1–11; Leviticus 23:5). Others only refrain from commerce or employment on those days but are free to do all other manner of work such as mowing the lawn, gardening, digging ditches, building houses, traveling, and doing housework. Colossians 2:16 Parallel Verses [⇓ See commentary ⇓] Colossians 2:16, NIV: "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day." While members of the Jerusalem Temple and the Hasmonean dynasty used the lunar calendar, the Qumran community used a 364-day calendar, as exemplified by Scroll 4Q324d recently published by Ratson and Ben-Dov. What does GOD Almighty say? Revelation 6:12-14 ESV / 2,206 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful. Beginning of the Month; lit. While our Moon is airless, research indicates the presence of hematite, a form of rust that normally requires oxygen and water. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. Bible encyclopedia for study of the Bible. NOWHERE DOES THE BIBLE AUTHORIZE US TO DO OTHERWISE! (Psalm 8.3–4). The Hebrew calendar is a lunisolar calendar. The language is an accurate description of the comparative luminosity of the moon and the sun. The first aspect mentioned about the New Jerusalem in this passage is that its origin is in heaven: "the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God" (Revelation 21:10). Likewise, the less common Hebrew word for month, יֶרַח, is derived from the term יָרֵח, “moon,” proving, some … iii. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. The Biblical New Moon is the First Crescent. Hodesh (New Moon), is derived from the root H.D.SH. meaning new or to make new/ renew. The Crescent New Moon is called Hodesh because it is the first time the moon is seen anew after being concealed for several days at the end of the lunar cycle. They are also “signs” in the sense of navigational “indicators,” and all through history men have used the … KJ21. A careful study of the Bible shows that God never commanded Israel to “celebrate” the arrival of the new moon as a holy day. Celebrating The New Moon. And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,’ says the Lord" (Isaiah 66:22, 23). Bible verses related to Moon from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance. Selah. “You are the Lord, you alone. In If your father misses me at all, then say, ‘David earnestly asked leave of me to run to Bethlehem his city, for there is a yearly sacrifice there for all the clan.’ The Bible does not say the earth was flat, but rather it is a round sphere, and was thousands of years ahead of science, but if you think it is a pie in the sky, and you believe Jesus lied about heaving not being real, then you will die in your sins, and I pray you repent before the Day of Judgment (Rev 20:12-15). The Hebrew word “chodesh” (Strong’s #2320) is used for the month or “new month” in the Bible. 4. And that is … Scripture facts on New Moon. It is described in detail in Revelation 21:9-27. Let no man therefore iudge you in meat, or in drinke, or in respect of an Holy day, or of the New moone, or of the Sabbath dayes: - King James Version (1611) - View 1611 Bible Scan Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- Verse Concepts. The Bible indicates that the earth is round. [N] [B] The first day of the lunar month was observed as a holy day. The New Jerusalem is the heavenly city the Bible prophesies will exist on the new earth at the end of time. It began, for religious purposes, with the new moon next after the spring equinox, and consisted normally of twelve months, or 354 days. In what way was the new moon significant in the Bible? 3. KJV: the sun, and the moon, and the stars, INT: and see the sun and the moon and the stars all. What does the Bible say about those who consult with astrologers and use astrology as guidance for their lives? If, however, I am correct in saying that the Bible does not necessarily state in Genesis 1 that on the fourth day of Creation also the moon appeared as the earth’s moon, this gives room for … And, how do recent theories surrounding four blood moons fit with end times signs mentioned in the Bible? Homeschooling Torah | How does the Bible teach us to determine the beginning of a new moon or a new year? In this article we lay out those verses and delve into what the Bible really says about the future of the sun and moon. “You are the Lord, you alone. It’s always marked by a new moon. Clearly, then, the determination of the New Moon day and the start of the month by the New Moon crescent is that approved and actually kept by the Messiah himself. (n.) A representation of the increasing moon, often used as an emblem or badge. Deuteronomy 17:3 HEB: וְלַשֶּׁ֣מֶשׁ ׀ א֣וֹ לַיָּרֵ֗חַ א֛וֹ לְכָל־ NAS: them, or the sun or the moon or any KJV: them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host INT: the sun or the moon or any. For the Psalmist, the moon sparks wonder at God's power: 'When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, what is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him?' And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. The annual cycle actually begins on a new moon, the one starting the Hebrew month of Abib. 2. The cycle of religious feasts depended on the moon. Selah. The Bible says that stars, along with the sun and moon, were given for “signs” and “seasons” (Genesis 1:14); that is, they were meant to mark time for us. Some allusions to the time before there was a Moon may be found also in the Scriptures. (1) Question/Objection: If the New Moon nearest the vernal equinox is the true beacon of the New Year, how can we know in advance which New Moon will be the closest?How could ancient Israel have possibly known this?

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